Q: [via phone] where are you proper now? A: northern wisconsin, searching at lake kawaguesaga. Fine time of the 12 months. The tourists are leaving and we nevertheless have a month and a half of precise weather and golf. Q: i take it you like each? A: golfing is one among my 3 favored pursuits, which might be in this order: golfing, golfing and golf. I stay in two locations. Six months of the yr up right here, six months in nashville. Q: you helped installation your company, gass weber mullins, in milwaukee in 2004, but how frequently are you in milwaukee? A: not often more than 10 to 14 days a yr. When we set the firm up, we knew there had been diverse corporations across the u . S . That were becoming an awful lot more cozy with individuals now not necessarily working within the workplace. David boies had set up his firm that manner. So my companions were accurate with it and that they knew that, with the docket i've, i certainly didn’t ought to be in wisconsin. I just needed an airport nearby. Q: how did this jet-putting practice come about? A: i simply decided i didn’t need to combat the winters anymore. Got a condo [initially in florida] and started out recognizing that i may want to cross down there, get a good internet connection, and set myself up. I ought to both work and revel in respectable climate. Q: in what state do you strive the maximum instances? A: for some time, considered one of my clients had me trying a bunch of instances in oklahoma. Then they also had hospitals in missouri and arkansas. Now one of the clients has hassle cases in new jersey. We’ve got one in newark, one down close to atlantic metropolis, and some other one which’s probably to come in. Q: do you've got the equal trial group with you all the time? A: two of my partners are my 2d chairs: mike brennan and brian cahill. It doesn’t constantly work flawlessly, but we strive to keep an every-other-case order. So the following trial up, cahill goes to be with me. Brennan, optimistically, could have his agenda unfastened so he can prepare the following one at the same time as brian and i are in trial. Then whilst mike and that i are in trial, brian can be running on the following one. Q: is your trial crew just you and a 2d chair? A: and my paralegal, who’s been with me for 25 years. We rotate associates, however they’re generally now not in the metropolis in which we’re attempting the instances. We’ll continually have neighborhood suggest there, so they provide the associate role. I usually exit a week in advance of time. By the point i am getting there, my paralegal tracy’s got the war room all installation, got the machines up and strolling. From time to time brian or mike could have gone in in advance of time to get witnesses prepped. Q: what’s your war room like? A: commonly two adjoining rooms with a door among them. One room is a conference room with a massive paintings table and enough chairs for the whole group to get collectively at the give up of the day to go over what’s going on, and who is doing what for tomorrow. If we must prepare a witness, we’ve were given room to paintings. The adjoining room will have work desks for tracy and both mike or brian. Then we’ll have but many printers, scanners, and many others. We want. Inside the courtroom, under our desk, we've got a printer and a scanner so that we will print whatever whilst we’re in court docket. Or if new files get produced, we are able to experiment them in at once. Q: is that not unusual in courts these days? To have a printer underneath your desk? A: there aren't many different attorneys i’ve seen who try this. We simply find that … if it’s now not my witness, for example, however it’s going to be brian’s or mike’s, if i've thoughts that i need to get into the exam they’re going to do, i just do a brief outline at the fly. I will print it. They don’t must fear approximately analyzing my handwriting. They can simply slip it in. I can access the outline that has been organized for the witness. I can insert it proper there and simply have them swap out a web page. Q: does the printer ever reason a distraction? A: no, as long as you don’t print some thing while the courtroom’s absolutely silent. You simply choose and choose some time. Q: how regularly do you visit trial? A: on common, it’s three to 4 instances a 12 months. Over 40 years, i’ve completed greater than three hundred, so that could average out to approximately seven a yr. Q: is it much less often these days? A: we’re going towards the fashion. The fashion these days is that fewer and fewer instances go to trial. And what’s befell is the experience degree of trial legal professionals goes down, so savvy customers are locating the trial dogs which might be nonetheless trying instances. Our docket is largely those cases that have to go to trial. Within the closing years we’ve settled most effective 10 to twenty percentage of the cases we’ve got assignments on. Q: what is it approximately a case that makes it probable to visit trial? A: a very good share of them are cases wherein the patron has exhausted all of their settlement assessment and the plaintiff’s demand is still manner in excess of what they’ve evaluated the case at. You furthermore may have to understand how we define a win. Like a case that we took to trial in missoula, montana, some of years in the past. It was 20 mind damage claims. We evaluated the case as having a cost of $five million. Q: overall? A: general. Plaintiff wanted $80 million. We brought the verdict in at $five. 2 million. That’s a win. So a certain quantity of these instances are: the consumer has presented as a great deal as they need and past that they’re inclined to take the chance. In pittsburgh now, we’re representing a eating place known as the unique hot canine keep. A combat happens in the road out of doors of the restaurant—doesn’t begin inside the eating place or whatever—and one guy pulls a gun and shoots and kills the other guy. And due to the fact the guy who had the gun were eating on the eating place, the plaintiff is suing the restaurant. That’s the type of case that no cash need to be paid on. So that’s some other a part of those instances wherein the claim of legal responsibility is so outrageous that it just wishes to be attempted. Then the other 1/3 of the cases are wherein there may be a colorable claim, but the odds could want the protection winning and the plaintiff has an unreasonable call for. They want to roll the dice. The cause why we will take the ones instances to trial and win them is that we do such robust jury research. We test all of our instances before we go to trial. We in reality carry in mock jurors. From time to time we’ll do 3 companies of 10, or four organizations of 10. And we present the complete case to them in a compressed manner and have them planned. We get all of it on video. We have them fill out man or woman verdicts, then they planned and get a set verdict. So when you get 30 to forty people reacting to the facts of the case, and if the 30 to forty human beings are close to the demographic breakdown of the vicinity where you’re going to try the case, you’ve were given a great insight into what the remaining verdict could be. Q: how early do you do those mock trials? A: a number of them we do very early on—earlier than there have been any depositions. On some cases we’ve completed as many as eight. We do them any time we’ve had a full-size exchange inside the information. Too many lawyers make the error of thinking the most effective time to do your jury research is very near trial, after which they end up doing them 30 days earlier than trial and also you don’t surely have a chance to react to what you’ve learned from the testing. Q: is there an example where you discovered some thing from the testing and you decided to either boom or lower the agreement provide? A: we took a case to trial in milwaukee a couple years in the past. Our consumer was willing to without a doubt pay extra than the case changed into virtually worth in our evaluation, and we held off doing the studies till approximately 30 days earlier than trial. While the customer noticed how strongly the chances had been of winning the case, they pulled the money off the table and allow us to move ahead and take it to verdict. And the verdict changed into precisely what the research had predicted: finding that the plaintiff turned into 85 percentage at fault and consequently might get no healing. Q: you mentioned “our evaluation” of what the settlement must be. How do you make a decision? I’m curious at what factor you started out to realise, “properly, this situation looks like a $five million verdict, this one seems like a $10 million verdict”? A: properly, there’s one of these wealthy amount of information out there in phrases of verdict newshounds and settlement journalists, and we collect all of that information. We've our own facts of what it has taken to either settle a case or what a verdict has been, so we have our own proprietary database. Of the contributors of our company are ex-judges and both of them additionally have energetic mediation practices, so they're seeing on a everyday basis what people are willing to accept. You put all of that collectively and have a look at it in an objective way. Q: you ever disagree along with your second chair on what the settlement have to be? A: at the very few cases where we've had a confrontation, we’re generally within approximately a ten percent spread—both high or low—of where we in the end emerge as. When we've a disagreement we name it out for the customer as to who is the extra conservative, who's at the better side. Then we supply them a range, in place of seeking to supply them a particular number that we positioned the value on. The cause why we try so hard to get to a particular quantity is that brian, for about 10 years, went inner and in fact ran all of the litigation at the case enterprise. And he hated it whilst he could get those reviews from out of doors counsel that said, “the verdict can be among $2 million and $6 million.” that’s nugatory. I've evolved a patron following due to the fact they knew i would provide them a number of. So his enjoy interior plus my lengthy experience outside, we’ve always tried to get to as specific quite a number as we are able to. Q: are you ever incorrect at the number? A: our verdict numbers are not often better, perhaps 10% better, and normally either quite tons right on or beneath. Q: you’re also a plaintiff’s attorney. In truth, to procure a $104. 5 million verdict, proper? A: proper. The defense attorney changed into so far off i couldn’t speak experience to him. We have been willing to attempt to settle that case for what had been the compensatory damages of $four. Five million and he couldn’t positioned a fee at the punitive publicity at all. He ought to have settled the case with us for $four. Five million and it'd were all over and executed with, but he couldn’t deliver himself to put any fee at the punitive damages within the case. Then of course he receives blasted for $a hundred million within the punitive. Q: how frequently are you able to no longer talk feel to the opposition attorney? A: commonly the plaintiff’s lawyers on massive instances have been around long enough to realize, and you may talk and get something achieved. It’s the men who haven’t tried sufficient massive cases which might be so difficult to deal with. They simply assume they’ve were given pie inside the sky. And it may be on either facet. It may be a defense attorney who thinks they’re the finest aspect seeing that sliced bread but they haven’t treated sufficient quad cases, death instances, horrific burn cases, brain harm instances, to recognize which ones the jury can set apart sympathy and anger on and absolutely come to an goal verdict. Q: talking of sympathy: numerous many years in the past, you created a video referred to as “coping with sympathy in jury trials.” how did that come about? A: i had had my own stories, as a protection lawyer, being open with jurors in ultimate arguments and acknowledging how sympathetic the plaintiff might be who’s had a sad accident. I’d had accurate achievement getting them to recognise they could have sympathy and but decide the case with their head and no longer their coronary heart. So i used to be at a national meeting and i’m speakme with a guy from los angeles. He had exactly the identical experience, but he had it in a dramatic style. He defended the manufacturers of the first cannonball run film, and one of the stunt humans in the movie, heidi von beltz, had a crash and ended up as a quadriplegic. He had to shield the manufacturer and he become doing the same element i was doing. So we determined we had been going to help different attorneys develop that method. And it came about because of the imperative legal professional cocktail reception, sharing battle memories. Human beings these days nonetheless inform me approximately watching that tape. Q: so how do you deal with sympathy in instances like that? A: we try to do voir dire so we’re instructive no longer injunctive. In preference to telling them, “you can’t let sympathy play a component,” we inform them, “a few humans are in professions in which caring and sympathy are simply part of your being. You could have those feelings, but you have if you want to compartmentalize them in case you’re going to be a juror.” in case you simply get them to consider it, those folks who can’t do it will discover themselves and say to the judge, “choose, that is a case i simply shouldn’t be on.” then, in final argument, we come returned to the promise they’ve made to us. If the protection lawyer takes time to explain why and what sympathy will do, jurors can set it aside. They do it all the time. Q: you furthermore mght communicate several times a year on trial strategies. What’s one of the most important things you endorse? A: too many legal professionals think in phrases of proof and that they don’t think in phrases of the story of the case, the theme, the narrative arc. That’s what jurors suppose in terms of. “that is a case about … ” after which the the rest of that sentence is going to decide so much about how jurors study it. Q: what’s overestimated in terms of trial method? A: i think attorneys overrate move-examination. I’ll come up with an instance. A case we attempted in newark a pair years in the past involved 4 university youngsters on an standard faculty backyard in august, school not in consultation, summertime. Four contributors of the ms-thirteen gang done 3 murders and the attempted murder of the fourth one. She’s the simplest survivor. She’s now going to be testifying within the civil instances, the wrongful death cases and her harm case. She testified within the criminal instances of 3 of the group members. She gave an eight-hour deposition. My move-examination of her turned into precisely 22 minutes lengthy. We got the entirety from her that we wished. The move-examination was her saying “sure” to almost every considered one of my questions, which had been asked in a totally low-key, soft voice. Too many legal professionals spend too much time on prolonged move-examinations, arguing with witnesses, rather than sitting down and thinking about what's the absolute core of the case and the way can i ask those questions in a way with the intention to get a “yes” answer? Q: they’re going for the perry mason second. A: exactly. That’s now not to mention there aren’t witnesses that you do need to take out all the weapons. In that equal trial, one of the professionals for the plaintiffs became that form of witness, and he were given what he deserved. And the jury didn’t assume some thing awful approximately me because i went after him. You need to broaden the potential to understand when you could pass after a witness and whilst there’s a higher manner than doing it in a hardball fashion. Q: let’s speak approximately the cannon dunphy/habush case. What became the response in prison circles? Did people come up to you and talk approximately it? A: yes, and what become so worthwhile become that maximum all people understood that what bill cannon and pat dunphy had executed changed into now not specially for their very own benefit. It took a few legal professionals awhile to understand the manner i phrased it: that cannon & dunphy had gained for all attorneys the proper to compete against cannon & dunphy. The real retaining in the case is that every lawyer has a right to put in the front of a ability patron their talents, expertise, who they are as a person, and allow the purchaser make the selection as to who’s the proper legal professional for them. The way the internet is set up, what cannon and dunphy did by means of using the google search phrases became to position both websites in the front of a customer and let them decide. Q: right, but one is an ad and one is a google solution. A: proper. However it allows the consumer today, with a click of the mouse, to make the evaluation. Whilst bill and pat got here to me i stated, “you already know, if i win this for you, you're giving each lawyer within the country of wisconsin the opportunity to do the same element to you.” they each said, “so what? We’ll evaluate our credentials with absolutely everyone.” q: did you speak to all people who felt there was an ethical problem concerned in using somebody else’s call on the way to advertise on your very own enterprise? A: no doubt about it. There’s a certain phase of the bar that just thought it changed into unseemly. They could in no way do it. However after you receive the premise that legal professional marketing, legal professional facts, verbal exchange to potential clients is good to allow them to make the decision, then whether an individual thinks it’s unseemly or not is their opinion and their opinion handiest. Q: what’s your largest regret as an legal professional? A: probably now not taking greater cases to verdict in advance in my career. I constantly took greater than my peers did, but there have been instances whilst the customers desired to settle greater than i notion they must. It’s that fine line that a trial lawyer has to stroll: letting the customer make the decision even in case you wouldn’t make the decision the same manner. One factor i need to tell you i feel very strongly approximately: i don’t assume trial lawyers, in trendy, do sufficient introspection. [our firm] has a totally robust policy of doing what we call “after-movement critiques.” in trial, we've the debrief at the give up of the day. After the trial is done, we debrief. What did we do right? What did we do incorrect? How will we do it in a different way the next time? It’s no longer a lot what took place, it’s why the decision got here in the manner it did and what it become linked to that the legal professional did or didn’t do. Too many lawyers suppose you may strive instances and also you’ll just aggregate that experience and get better. The ones lawyers will attempt 20 cases however they attempted them all at stage one. The extremely good legal professionals are the ones who tried that one at stage one, figured out what they did incorrect, next trial is at stage , and on the stop of 20 trials, they’re up at degree 20. Q: what number of ranges are there? A: they by no means forestall.